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Answer» Wanna be a Programmer or Software Engineer - Winch? Software Engineer ReviewThe above is from an article on http://toptenreviews.com and below is the link to the page. http://computer-careers-review.toptenreviews.com/software-engineer-review.html And no, I do not work for them. Just thought some here might like to read this.software engineer=software developer=software programmer. They all mean essentially the same thing. And none of them have been in particularly high demand since before the .com burst from what I understand. Quote from: BC_Programmer on December 20, 2010, 12:22:52 PM software engineer=software developer=software programmer.No. Read the report. A real Software Engineer has to have a degree. At least BS. Anybody can call himself a developer. IT includes wide spectrum of commercial activities that are not tie directly to the dot com thing. Or even a physical network. IT includes the EE who would designs a new cell phone. And yes, Steve Jobs dropped out and became very good at what he does. But he is one of the few exceptions. The rest of us have to study. And the demand for real Software Engineers with degrees is going up, up and sway. Quote from: Geek-9pm on December 20, 2010, 12:59:39 PM A real Software Engineer has to have a degree. At least BS.oooh enterprisey. I still disagree. Definition according to the dictionary: Quote A software engineer is a person who applies the principles of software engineering to the design, development, testing, and evaluation of the software and systems that make computers or anything containing software, such as chips, work. Quote IT includes wide spectrum of commercial activities that are not tie directly to the dot com thing. Or even a physical network.Of course it does. but you're talking about software engineering, not IT jobs at large. Quote And the demand for real Software Engineers with degrees is going up, up and sway. That hasn't really changed much. Look at ads in 1998 for Java programmers with 5 years of corporate experience, and now they want people with 5 years of experience working with WPF. Not much different in that their requirements are impossible to satisfy. Also, from what I can tell, having a degree means absolutely nothing, in truth, or at least, it doesn't mean what people who are looking for people with said degrees would like it to mean. the courses hardly ever touch on databases, ignore TEST-driven development and almost always stick with a single language throughout- usually Java, Scheme, or smalltalk. Whereas corporations want people who can write robust database driven 3 tier applications using a handful of different languages and technologies (usually they want XML without knowing what it's for, or why... XML in many ways is the new Java); only the actual developers usually care if they use a well modelled object heirarchy. Management (and thus the people often responsible for hiring, although most companies actually use peer review) just wants people who have lots of sparkly acronyms on their resume. I recall reading on TDWTF about a person who had three computer science degrees (legit) that couldn't program worth a lick. I assume they are the exception rather then the rule, but if somebody like that can get these degrees, do they mean anything? not really. Of course in all fairness you never said that they did; you merely stated a fact and that fact was that companies are looking for people with said degrees. They aren't requiring them any more then they used to. In fact, (again, from what I can tell) some of them have actually realized that they are meaningless and basically ignore wether or wether or not that person has degrees, and instead opt for interview questions that will determine if they know what they should know to have the job better then that expensive piece of paper would.I'm using DragonPad. Hello again, BC programmer. Your logic is well-founded and based on reality. My intent was to provide to the readers of this forum some information that would broaden their outlook of what computer technology is. In the industrial circus era many who say or believe that software engineering is a form of electrical engineering, and the people who organize electrical engineering conferences try to include software engineers in their fold. I am going to include in a non-British QUOTATION from somebody who claims to be some kind of expert about the future of top jobs in the United States. He claims the information is based on US government purports. Of course, reports are always three years or so behind the times. Still, here it is for what it's worth. Quote The top jobs for 2011 and beyond: 5 careers for the new year Of course, this report completely ignores is the fact that in 2009 and 2010 United States economy went completely stagnant. And in Europe everything is going down the tube. Maybe the only ones who are employed might be the Eskimos. But I'm not sure about that. I might add that Bill Gates does not have a degree, and he has done reasonably well. Quote from: rthompson80819 on December 20, 2010, 04:31:53 PM I might add that Bill Gates does not have a degree, and he has done reasonably well.Such a pity! He should have stayed in school! Quote from: Geek-9pm on December 20, 2010, 05:22:53 PM Such a pity! He should have stayed in school!Quote from: BC_Programmer on December 20, 2010, 05:26:00 PM Well.. I mean, he does not have a degree. Or did they just give him one anyway? If I have His money, and NO DEGREE, ---I would cry all the way to the bank! Edit: Here is the counter argument. Quote How to Get Ahead Without A College DegreeAlso, I should probably point out that it's quite literally illegal for a software developer- or programmer- regardless of whether they have a "Software engineering" degree or not, to call themselves an "engineer" in At the very least, Texas and Canada. What I find interesting about the link in the original post is that what they describe is not an engineer; there is a rather large divide, much as a Electrician is not really an electrical engineer nor is a Assembly line factory worker necessarily a mechanical engineer. Technically, many of the things they are doing would in fact count, in the definition of the word, as Engineering, but "Engineering" has a broader legal implication in that while they leverage the same techniques as their "non-engineer" comrades, they often apply them in situations that are more likely to cause loss of life if done incorrectly. A prime example- bridge construction. You need engineers. Wiring up that supercomputer or hydraulic dynamo? you need electrical engineers, not weekend electricians. However, at the current time, while there are different degrees for Computer Science and Computer Engineering, the latter is a rather small subset of the former; and the former is often not a prerequisite for the latter, either. The problem is that while they learn the purely engineering topics they learn nothing about how to do so well nor about the very thing that they apply to perform that engineering- namely Computer Science. This results in such collosal disasters of over-engineered and under-designed products such as the Therac-25 where mistakes made by software engineers cause rather serious implications and death. This is also where a notable divide can be seen. While your standard "engineer" (in the traditional sense, such as bridges, advanced electrical applications, etc) will in fact be held personally accountable for their own professionalism, in the case of "software engineering" (I use that term in quotes because it's both ill-defined and badly conducted where it is claimed to exist), the companies are held responsible; But not the actual people who did the work. While the companies themselves are not completely blameless, this differs completely from traditional mechanical engineering. Licensed Professional Engineers know that their professional livelihood rests on their projects not hurting the public. Many Professional Engineers have had their licenses suspended or revoked for screwing up, even if the screw up was not directly their fault. I have never heard of a "Software Engineer" being held to a higher standard than anyone else who interacts with the public. It's basically just a fancy label for a enterprise developer. The thing is, while the other engineering disciplines have developed over hundreds, if not thousands of years, by applying the principles of their "sciences"; Computer Science is not only a very young field but it's not even required to become a card-carrying "Software Engineer". Basically, It's akin to CALLING a person who constructs a wheel an "engineer" while by the definition of the word they did in fact "engineer" it, it doesn't bring with it the same professionalism as the more aged engineering disciplines. At the moment, Software Engineering degrees, unlike, say, Mechanical Engineering degrees, are absolutely meaningless. Yes, yes, look you paid a lot of money and got a certification and now you get to put this neat framed piece of paper on the wall. That doesn't mean everybody who follows a different path is incompetent, or doing anything unsafe, or (even) that the Software Engineering profession is doing the right thing- in comparison to "standard" software development. Professional Engineers are held responsible for every decision they make, regardless of any employee-employer relationship. This is not the case for Software Engineers. Now, I'm not saying that They don't have any qualifications whatsoever; my point is that they aren't actually getting the training to apply Computer Science principles for Engineering any more then you're standard software developer; They don't have "engineering ethics" courses they have to take like real engineering degrees. As it stands now it's a giant sick joke. That was a good post, BC. It makes this thread more valuable as a reference. For those who want to learn more software development, group responsibility and the engineering profession, here is a good set of book reviews. http://www.developerdotstar.com/mag/categories/software_development_book.html |
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