Solve : Floppy Question?

1.	Solve : Floppy Question?
Answer» I have been given an old Dan computer that runs WIN 3.1. As well as the normal F/D drive it has a gianormous one for a few large, (about 5" and a bit diameter) F/D . These disks are really floppy, not in a rigid case like normal ones. I am probably the only person never seen them before, but any suggestions what years these type of disks were in use please? Just of interest as I have not come across them before.Quote from: pantherman on August 09, 2010, 11:45:40 AM I have been given an old Dan computer that runs WIN 3.1. As well as the normal F/D drive it has a gianormous one for a few large, (about 5" and a bit diameter) F/D . These disks are really floppy, not in a rigid case like normal ones. I am probably the only person never seen them before, but any suggestions what years these type of disks were in use please? Just of interest as I have not come across them before. 5-1/4" floppy; 1982 (I think, whenever the original PC was released). Died a horrible death market wise when it was found that 3-1/2" floppies could STORE a lot more and were far less fragile. Basically, they were in common use until around 1993-1995 when new computers started coming without them.Thanks for that. Curiosity satisfied! I suppose in years to come SOMEONE will ask a similar question about 3.1/2" floppies. I don't know when the computer was made, other than quite a while ago.Quote from: pantherman on August 09, 2010, 12:54:45 PM Thanks for that. Curiosity satisfied! I suppose in years to come someone will ask a similar question about 3.1/2" floppies. I don't know when the computer was made, other than quite a while ago. Win3.1 dates it no later than 1995 (when Win95 was released); computer could be late 80's. 3.5in FDD showed up on Macintosh before PC's. 5-1/4" was in use on PC's until about 1990.Quote from: pantherman on August 09, 2010, 12:54:45 PM Thanks for that. Curiosity satisfied! I suppose in years to come someone will ask a similar question about 3.1/2" floppies. Actually, that time is pretty much now- new computers don't come with floppy drives anymore, and a lot of PEOPLE don't know what they are at all. There has been a shift in how actions are "iconized"... as I'm sure you've noticed, most programs represent the "save" function with a floppy disk. Since most people don't know what it is, it's not really a good metaphor anymore. the "new" way to depict the save function is usually a folder with an arrow pointing into it. It's a bit CLUMSY but easier to relate too. Quote from: Computer_Commando on August 09, 2010, 01:28:49 PM Win3.1 dates it no later than 1995 (when Win95 was released); No it doesn't. they still sold many PCs with windows 3.1 after windows 95 was released, well into 1997 (usually as options when you purchased the machine. The fact that it has a 5-1/4" floppy dates it pretty much right in the middle of windows 3.1's "epoch". Pantherman: if you're truly curious, you might be able to get some information on the machine by running "MSD" at a DOS prompt, assuming that it starts. (some of the information may be wrong, since it commonly labelled anything beyond a 486 as a 486, but it can give a good idea about the age of the machine, specifically the BIOS date. (which you could of course read from the boot screen.)Thanks again I will give it a try.Check out this article. Everything you could possibly want to know about floppies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disks http://www.examiner.com/x-16352-Japan-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d24-Sony-to-discontinue-35-inch-floppy-disk-in-Japan That may be an interesting read. Apparently, as of 2009, 8.5 million disks are still being used in Japan. Thanks for all the info and links. Being an inquisitive (ie, nosey!) chap I did the MSD thing and found far more than I understood! Main bit for me was, "BIOS Date 05/05/91" Also found "ROM BIOS (C) 1990 American Megatrends INC PD 386 V2.0 09-10-91" One of the links mentions an 8" F/D and I thought my 5" was a big one! Just to add, when this machine starts up I have to reset the CMOS (Nope, I don't know anything about it, just enter the figures I was given) because the battery is low. Tried leaving it plugged in for 3 days, but it has not charged and I can't see the normal circular battery on the mother board to change, so guess it is a solder on type. After this it starts up with, "Supermemory C:\BATCH" No doubt a dim question to the knowledgeable, but what is "BATCH" and "Supermemory" please? I enter WIN at that to start as normal with WIN 3.1. Quote from: pantherman on August 10, 2010, 08:38:04 AM Thanks for all the info and links. Being an inquisitive (ie, nosey!) chap I did the MSD thing and found far more than I understood! Main bit for me was, "BIOS Date 05/05/91" Also found "ROM BIOS (C) 1990 American Megatrends INC PD 386 V2.0 09-10-91" 80386- those are quite old. MSD should also list the amount of RAM installed. (or you can see it when it counts it at the start, I suppose). I'd guess 2MB to 8MB. Quote Just to add, when this machine starts up I have to reset the CMOS (Nope, I don't know anything about it, just enter the figures I was given) because the battery is low. Tried leaving it plugged in for 3 days, but it has not charged and I can't see the normal circular battery on the mother board to change, so guess it is a solder on type. It's also possible you have a Dallas Clock chip. The chip says "Dallas" and has a little picture of an alarm clock on it. (It's supposed to last about 10 years.). I don't know where you can get one. Also, CMOS batteries are never "charged" by the machine. At least, none that I've seen. Quote After this it starts up with, "Supermemory C:\BATCH" No doubt a dim question to the knowledgeable, but what is "BATCH" and "Supermemory" please? that's the prompt. somebody changed it. type prompt $P$G to get a more familiar C:\BATCH> prompt. "BATCH" in this instance is a subdirectory of C:, and one can logically assume that it contains Batch files which are executed by autoexec.bat. If you want to change it "permanently" look in autoexec.bat for a line something like this: Code: [Select]Prompt SuperMemory $P and change it to Prompt $P$G ($P for path, $G for greater sign)Quote from: pantherman on August 10, 2010, 08:38:04 AM One of the links mentions an 8" F/D and I thought my 5" was a big one! Several years ago I had to use 8" floppies on an old phone/PBX system. The whole system should have been replaced years earlier, but for budget reasons wasn't. Every time power went out I had to reboot the system off of the 8" floppies. Luckily, I only had to put up with that system for about a year until we got a new phone system.Thanks again. "Also, CMOS batteries are never "charged" by the machine. At least, none that I've seen." That's a learning curve then as the person who gave me the computer said it did. But I would rather accept what you have said. Off to try it now. Quote from: pantherman on August 10, 2010, 12:36:04 PM Thanks again. "Also, CMOS batteries are never "charged" by the machine. At least, none that I've seen." That's a learning curve then as the person who gave me the computer said it did. But I would rather accept what you have said. Off to try it now. Since No CMOS battery setup I've ever seen (from the little cigar censored battery in my 286 to the Dallas chip I saw in one 386 as well as the more conventional CR2032 batteries) has ever supplied power to the CMOS circuit, It seems impossible for them to be charged when no power is being supplied . When the Power is on, the CMOS circuit is broken and the RTC RAM is kept alive via power from the power supply. As I'm sure we've all witnessed with standard batteries of any form, sometimes a short while of disuse can seem to restore a little life to them, that's pretty much all that happens. For example, my 286 that I had was nearly 17 years old when I first went to power it on. It was probably off and unused for a good 8-10 years. Of course, the battery was "dead" as far as the machine was concerned. but for that short while I had it on, the battery wasn't being used for the NVRAM circuit, so it sort of gained a little charge. enough to hold data for about a day or two, but no longer. Eventually this residual ability to keep the data intact disintegrated and the battery was essentially dead. Quote from: BC_Programmer on August 10, 2010, 12:49:12 PM ...It seems impossible for them to be charged when no power is being supplied. When the Power is on, the CMOS circuit is broken and the RTC RAM is kept alive via power from the power supply. As I'm sure we've all witnessed with standard batteries of any form, sometimes a short while of disuse can seem to restore a little life to them, that's pretty much all that happens.... There were a very few computers that used large value capacitors in place of batteries. They were charged when the computer was on. They are making a resurgence due to advanced battery technology, and are called: polyacene batteries. They look just like coin cells. http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13133 The REASON batteries appear to return to life. Even removing the load, the battery chemistry continues, the voltage increases, but the total capacity is still degraded. Reapply the load and the battery appears good for a short time.What you have written makes sense of what the previous owner told me. I think the battery must have recovered a little and he thought it was charging.

Answer»

I have been given an old Dan computer that runs WIN 3.1. As well as the normal F/D drive it has a gianormous one for a few large, (about 5" and a bit diameter) F/D . These disks are really floppy, not in a rigid case like normal ones.
I am probably the only person never seen them before, but any suggestions what years these type of disks were in use please?
Just of interest as I have not come across them before.Quote from: pantherman on August 09, 2010, 11:45:40 AM

I have been given an old Dan computer that runs WIN 3.1. As well as the normal F/D drive it has a gianormous one for a few large, (about 5" and a bit diameter) F/D . These disks are really floppy, not in a rigid case like normal ones.
I am probably the only person never seen them before, but any suggestions what years these type of disks were in use please?
Just of interest as I have not come across them before.

5-1/4" floppy; 1982 (I think, whenever the original PC was released). Died a horrible death market wise when it was found that 3-1/2" floppies could STORE a lot more and were far less fragile.

Basically, they were in common use until around 1993-1995 when new computers started coming without them.Thanks for that. Curiosity satisfied! I suppose in years to come SOMEONE will ask a similar question about 3.1/2" floppies.
I don't know when the computer was made, other than quite a while ago.Quote from: pantherman on August 09, 2010, 12:54:45 PM

Thanks for that. Curiosity satisfied! I suppose in years to come someone will ask a similar question about 3.1/2" floppies.
I don't know when the computer was made, other than quite a while ago.

Win3.1 dates it no later than 1995 (when Win95 was released); computer could be late 80's. 3.5in FDD showed up on Macintosh before PC's. 5-1/4" was in use on PC's until about 1990.Quote from: pantherman on August 09, 2010, 12:54:45 PM

Thanks for that. Curiosity satisfied! I suppose in years to come someone will ask a similar question about 3.1/2" floppies.

Actually, that time is pretty much now- new computers don't come with floppy drives anymore, and a lot of PEOPLE don't know what they are at all. There has been a shift in how actions are "iconized"... as I'm sure you've noticed, most programs represent the "save" function with a floppy disk. Since most people don't know what it is, it's not really a good metaphor anymore. the "new" way to depict the save function is usually a folder with an arrow pointing into it. It's a bit CLUMSY but easier to relate too.

Quote from: Computer_Commando on August 09, 2010, 01:28:49 PM

Win3.1 dates it no later than 1995 (when Win95 was released);

No it doesn't. they still sold many PCs with windows 3.1 after windows 95 was released, well into 1997 (usually as options when you purchased the machine. The fact that it has a 5-1/4" floppy dates it pretty much right in the middle of windows 3.1's "epoch".

Pantherman: if you're truly curious, you might be able to get some information on the machine by running "MSD" at a DOS prompt, assuming that it starts. (some of the information may be wrong, since it commonly labelled anything beyond a 486 as a 486, but it can give a good idea about the age of the machine, specifically the BIOS date. (which you could of course read from the boot screen.)Thanks again I will give it a try.Check out this article. Everything you could possibly want to know about floppies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disks

http://www.examiner.com/x-16352-Japan-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d24-Sony-to-discontinue-35-inch-floppy-disk-in-Japan

That may be an interesting read. Apparently, as of 2009, 8.5 million disks are still being used in Japan.

Thanks for all the info and links. Being an inquisitive (ie, nosey!) chap I did the MSD thing and found far more than I understood!
Main bit for me was, "BIOS Date 05/05/91"
Also found "ROM BIOS (C) 1990 American Megatrends INC PD 386 V2.0 09-10-91"

One of the links mentions an 8" F/D and I thought my 5" was a big one!

Just to add, when this machine starts up I have to reset the CMOS (Nope, I don't know anything about it, just enter the figures I was given) because the battery is low. Tried leaving it plugged in for 3 days, but it has not charged and I can't see the normal circular battery on the mother board to change, so guess it is a solder on type. After this it starts up with, "Supermemory C:\BATCH"

No doubt a dim question to the knowledgeable, but what is "BATCH" and "Supermemory" please?
I enter WIN at that to start as normal with WIN 3.1.

Quote from: pantherman on August 10, 2010, 08:38:04 AM

Thanks for all the info and links. Being an inquisitive (ie, nosey!) chap I did the MSD thing and found far more than I understood!
Main bit for me was, "BIOS Date 05/05/91"
Also found "ROM BIOS (C) 1990 American Megatrends INC PD 386 V2.0 09-10-91"

80386- those are quite old. MSD should also list the amount of RAM installed. (or you can see it when it counts it at the start, I suppose). I'd guess 2MB to 8MB.

Quote

Just to add, when this machine starts up I have to reset the CMOS (Nope, I don't know anything about it, just enter the figures I was given) because the battery is low. Tried leaving it plugged in for 3 days, but it has not charged and I can't see the normal circular battery on the mother board to change, so guess it is a solder on type.

It's also possible you have a Dallas Clock chip. The chip says "Dallas" and has a little picture of an alarm clock on it. (It's supposed to last about 10 years.). I don't know where you can get one.

Also, CMOS batteries are never "charged" by the machine. At least, none that I've seen.

Quote

After this it starts up with, "Supermemory C:\BATCH"

No doubt a dim question to the knowledgeable, but what is "BATCH" and "Supermemory" please?

that's the prompt. somebody changed it.

type prompt $P$G to get a more familiar C:\BATCH> prompt.

"BATCH" in this instance is a subdirectory of C:, and one can logically assume that it contains Batch files which are executed by autoexec.bat. If you want to change it "permanently" look in autoexec.bat for a line something like this:

Code: [Select]Prompt SuperMemory $P

and change it to Prompt $P$G ($P for path, $G for greater sign)Quote from: pantherman on August 10, 2010, 08:38:04 AM

One of the links mentions an 8" F/D and I thought my 5" was a big one!

Several years ago I had to use 8" floppies on an old phone/PBX system. The whole system should have been replaced years earlier, but for budget reasons wasn't. Every time power went out I had to reboot the system off of the 8" floppies.

Luckily, I only had to put up with that system for about a year until we got a new phone system.Thanks again.
"Also, CMOS batteries are never "charged" by the machine. At least, none that I've seen."
That's a learning curve then as the person who gave me the computer said it did. But I would rather accept what you have said.
Off to try it now. Quote from: pantherman on August 10, 2010, 12:36:04 PM

Thanks again.
"Also, CMOS batteries are never "charged" by the machine. At least, none that I've seen."
That's a learning curve then as the person who gave me the computer said it did. But I would rather accept what you have said.
Off to try it now.

Since No CMOS battery setup I've ever seen (from the little cigar *censored* battery in my 286 to the Dallas chip I saw in one 386 as well as the more conventional CR2032 batteries) has ever supplied power to the CMOS circuit, It seems impossible for them to be charged when no power is being supplied . When the Power is on, the CMOS circuit is broken and the RTC RAM is kept alive via power from the power supply. As I'm sure we've all witnessed with standard batteries of any form, sometimes a short while of disuse can seem to restore a little life to them, that's pretty much all that happens.

For example, my 286 that I had was nearly 17 years old when I first went to power it on. It was probably off and unused for a good 8-10 years. Of course, the battery was "dead" as far as the machine was concerned. but for that short while I had it on, the battery wasn't being used for the NVRAM circuit, so it sort of gained a little charge. enough to hold data for about a day or two, but no longer. Eventually this residual ability to keep the data intact disintegrated and the battery was essentially dead.

Quote from: BC_Programmer on August 10, 2010, 12:49:12 PM

...It seems impossible for them to be charged when no power is being supplied. When the Power is on, the CMOS circuit is broken and the RTC RAM is kept alive via power from the power supply. As I'm sure we've all witnessed with standard batteries of any form, sometimes a short while of disuse can seem to restore a little life to them, that's pretty much all that happens....

There were a very few computers that used large value capacitors in place of batteries. They were charged when the computer was on. They are making a resurgence due to advanced battery technology, and are called: polyacene batteries. They look just like coin cells.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13133

The REASON batteries appear to return to life. Even removing the load, the battery chemistry continues, the voltage increases, but the total capacity is still degraded. Reapply the load and the battery appears good for a short time.What you have written makes sense of what the previous owner told me. I think the battery must have recovered a little and he thought it was charging.

Solve : Floppy Question?

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